Discussion Of What Is "High End"

[uraflit]

WHEN DID THIS PART OF THE FORUM EVER OPEN UP? LOL

[fordgtlover]

Here is a rather unsatisfying attempt by stereophile.com to define high end.

[kool bubba ice]

I still dont consider cans like the 580,SA5000,AKG 701, to be high end, along with many others. putting the 580 on the same pedistal as the R10 is silly, but many do.. Unless we have ultra hi end headphones.

[thrillmetoo]

sorry, wrong thread. Delete please

[mrarroyo]

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice

I still dont consider cans like the 580,SA5000,AKG 701, to be high end, along with many others. putting the 580 on the same pedistal as the R10 is silly, but many do.. Unless we have ultra hi end headphones.

While many consider the R10, L3000, Qualia, etc to be the top there are very few of these type of cans. Say 10 or so, plus they were in produced in a limited number.

Thus it creates an issue of where you put the more readily available cans like the UE9, RS-1, GS1000, etc. They are definetly above the SR60 and the K81.

I guess what I am trying to say is that although to some the R10 and similar are better than the UE9 and similar by their low numbers and few users they should be grouped together.

Most people have no problem grouping a $120,000 Maseratti w/ a $500,000 Bently as a high end car. Neither should we have a problem associating a $1,200 UE9 with a $6,000 R10.

Just my opinion.

[nick_charles]

[QUOTE=fordgtlover;4468267]

For example:
Principle 1
The primary purpose of the gear is to reproduce quality audio.
This immediately would exclude gaming headphones, and playstations (their primary purpose is to play games).

If said components are high fidelity why exclude them ? . If a games machine has been judged to be very good by some folks excluding discusion of it a priori looks like elitism to me - quality should be judged by audio performance (Fidelity) and nothing else surely ?

Principle 2
Portable gear is not High-end.
This might be contentious, but I'll throw it in anyway.

The notorious Wilson CES test of the iPod and the Stereophile measurements of the iPod really strongly contradict this assertion.

Principle 3
Value for money is not the primary purchasing or evaluation consideration.
High-end audio is not all about the best bang-for-buck. It is about the purist pursuit of the best audio reproduction - to your ears, and to your budget.

Price should not be part of the equation at all - just the highness of the fidelity !

Principle 4
There are no small improvements that are not worth chasing.
High-end audio is about chasing those final improvements. Cable discussions, DBT and proving that a tweak is scientifically valid is NOT part of high-end audio.

If absolute height of fidelity is the criteria then I agree that small improvements should be judged regadless of cost - however your insistence on banning science or even attempts to validate some "tweaks" look like part of a believers charter. If a component change really has made an audible change being able to verify this and not just rely on groupthink seems reasonable to me.

Principle 5
Skeptics need not apply.
If you are skeptical of the worth, value or benefit of any equipment, tweak or improvement - you are probably too focussed on the value for money equation; that is not high-end audio.

I think skepticism about whether some change has really made a difference (whether it is a $10 tweak or $2000 tweak) is absolutely rational otherwise you could just be accepting advertising claims and anecdotal claims wholesale.

Principle 6
High-end audio does not need to subject itself to DBT.
This would be akin to arguing that the owner of a Ferrari should prove that his car is better than your VW beetle.

But if two things are really not audibly different despite extreme price differences as has been suggested by certain tests then just stumping up the extra money with no real evidence that it is getting you anywhere is anti-rational. Your choice of course but wouldnt you like to know that something you bought really was actually better and not a difference that was imagined - what harm can it do to test this out ?

Principle 7
High-end audio is about what you want rather than what you need.
If you can't understand why anyone would buy a $1 Million dollar car or a $25,000 watch, then you probably won't understand high-end audio either.

Now we are in danger of just defining high end as high cost or aspirational and not about the audio quality itself - this again seems anti-rational. If expensive always means really good then this may be justifiable but clearly this is not a universal law - look at the Goldmund debacle.

Principle 8
High-end audio can include DIY.
Whether it be cables, DACs or Amps (even headphones), there are many DIYers whose primary goal is the pursuit of the best quality audio. Just because a product has a brand name doesn't make it any better - remember, the focus is on the ability to reproduce the best quality audio not how fancy it looks.

Agreed.

Principle 9
High-end audio can include older and used equipment.
Just because something is old doesn't exclude it from being high end. Older equipment offers terrific opportunities for high-end audio at decent prices. Used high-end equipment is still high end equipment - think classic cars.

Agreed

This group should not be elitist, but it should allow free discussion about the pursuit of the best quality audio - including questions from newbies (but please, not the 'High end amp for $300 questions').

But many of your principles will inevitably lead to elitist framing of discourse. For instance when Masters and Clark tested amps in the 1980s a $200 Pioneer receiver was as good as two $6000 Futterman monoblocks so why cannot a $300 amp be high fidelity ?

[The-One]

Can custom IEM owners join this Xclusive club with UE 10,11, ACS T2, T1, Westone ES2, Sensaphonics 2X-S etc as their ticket? Like when I got my ACS T2s nearly 2 years ago for eg, you could get no better.

I may not have the funds to indulge in an ultimate system where every aspect from source to output are meticiculous seen to. But custom IEMs dont' actually need as much seeing to as a pair of electrostats for eg.

$$$ for your thoughts?

[Soundinista]

Thank you, Jude and all who have posted, for this forum. Spread the word, hi-enders! We could have more Head-Fi’ers posting here.

I’m a latecomer to this thread and I haven’t read it all. In any case, I’ll leave my response to Fordgtlover’s exciting post – with apologies for failing to acknowledge any similar views that may have been put forward by those who were here before.

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Given that the purpose of a high end system is to reproduce music with the fewest compromises, rather than define exactly what gear is high end, it might be easier to put some constraints around what isn't. That is to say, perhaps a principle approach rather than a $ or a subjective assessment approach

For example:
Principle 1
The primary purpose of the gear is to reproduce quality audio.
This immediately would exclude gaming headphones, and playstations (their primary purpose is to play games).

Absolutely! With all due respect to gamers, the hi-end as we know it is purely about audio quality, and there’s something about gaming that does seem incompatible with pure audio enjoyment. (But I would regard some DVD, Blu-Ray or universal players as hi-end units. Inconsistent? )

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 2
Portable gear is not High-end.
This might be contentious, but I'll throw it in anyway.

You score again! Not very contentious, really. Even the best portable gear is not yet as good as it gets. Someday, maybe...

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 3
Value for money is not the primary purchasing or evaluation consideration.
High-end audio is not all about the best bang-for-buck. It is about the purist pursuit of the best audio reproduction - to your ears, and to your budget.

Right again! Painful but true: bang-for-buck can’t be the primary motivation in evaluating/pursuing the hi-end.

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 4
There are no small improvements that are not worth chasing.
High-end audio is about chasing those final improvements. Cable discussions, DBT and proving that a tweak is scientifically valid is NOT part of high-end audio.

Oooops!... Non Sequitur! What is it about scientific evidence – and particularly the #1 enemy of snake oil peddlers, the DBT – that makes it incompatible with the hi-end?

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 5
Skeptics need not apply.
If you are skeptical of the worth, value or benefit of any equipment, tweak or improvement - you are probably too focussed on the value for money equation; that is not high-end audio.

Oooops again! Very big oooops! What is it about gullibility & ignorance that makes one more likely to achieve hi-end bliss? Being skeptical does not imply being too focused on value for money. Let us not unwittingly pave the way for the hi-end snake oil peddlers. I trust that the good manufacturers alone – those who need not fear any DBT – have enough financial muscle to keep places like Head-Fi going strong.

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 6
High-end audio does not need to subject itself to DBT.
This would be akin to arguing that the owner of a Ferrari should prove that his car is better than your VW beetle.

Again, an honest mistake on your part, I respectfully submit. What could possibly be wrong with letting the Ferrari owner prove that his car is not a fraud?

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 7
High-end audio is about what you want rather than what you need.
If you can't understand why anyone would buy a $1 Million dollar car or a $25,000 watch, then you probably won't understand high-end audio either.

Okay! Certainly, every sane person must have some distinction between “wanting” and “needing”. But I think that distinction is highly overrated! (Maybe that goes to the heart of your point here.) Do I need my six headphone amps (the sixth and biggest of all will be here soon), or do I just want them? Oh, mercy!... Of course, I need them!

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 8
High-end audio can include DIY.
Whether it be cables, DACs or Amps (even headphones), there are many DIYers whose primary goal is the pursuit of the best quality audio. Just because a product has a brand name doesn't make it any better - remember, the focus is on the ability to reproduce the best quality audio not how fancy it looks.

Absolutely! Good point!

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

Principle 9
High-end audio can include older and used equipment.
Just because something is old doesn't exclude it from being high end. Older equipment offers terrific opportunities for high-end audio at decent prices. Used high-end equipment is still high end equipment - think classic cars.

Agreed. But maybe there is a little too much classic-audio mythology in the hi-end. Let’s face it: for the most part, old technology should be expected to lose the race. Sometimes, we get a little too much reverence toward classic pieces. (Yes, I understand that old is not necessarily obsolete.)

Originally Posted by fordgtlover

This my 2 cents worth. These are not rules to be applied strictly- but more to shape thinking.

This group should not be elitist, but it should allow free discussion about the pursuit of the best quality audio - including questions from newbies (but please, not the 'High end amp for $300 questions').

Newbies should only come armed with sensible questions or views, that have actually been researched.

There will be some measure of unavoidable elitism in a high-end forum. But you’re spot-on as regards newbies. Some humility can’t be bad for them at all. Let us resist the temptation of apologizing for our pursuit of the hi-end. (It goes without saying that we can use humility ourselves.)

My (very humble) two cents – gold-plated, heavy-gauge, 99.99% oxygen-free, and imported from Denmark!

[dave650]

ive got about as hi end as i can get, I've got the benz micro lukaschek riaa stage for phono, a grado higain headphone amp and senn 650s, one day I'll buy a new lead for it, I also have my choice of a few types of MC cart, supex and denon mainly, through a heavyish modded RB300.
I only work at a furniture store, this is hi end as I get.
Soon I will upload photos once I have a nicer shelf.
It sounds fantastic, just another story about the 650s kicking butt!
Or is this thread about more expensive stuff?

[Telynau]

Realistically, the High End is about retrieving as much information as possible from the source. I continue to be astonished by the amount of information (ambience, performance details, tone) that can be retrieved from ordinary CD's after they are ripped onto a hard drive and played back on a good USB DAC (e.g., Benchmark, Wavelength Audio). And I was genuinely surprised to hear how much more detail my Audio Research LS17 preamp retrieved from CD sources. I bought the preamp primarily for convenience but the difference in the noise floor and resulting resolution was not subtle at all. And I don't even like preamps, especially line preamps. Thought they were a waste of money (except for convenience features such as remote control). Boy was I wrong, at least in the case of the ARC. Regards, James

[Happy Camper]

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice

I still dont consider cans like the 580,SA5000,AKG 701, to be high end, along with many others. putting the 580 on the same pedistal as the R10 is silly, but many do.. Unless we have ultra hi end headphones.

Today's technology can't be considered high end? The classics are the best available technologies synergized to perfection. What's missing in today's products are desire and profit?

Yes, R10s and the like are uber products. IMO

[kool bubba ice]

Originally Posted by Happy Camper

Today's technology can't be considered high end? The classics are the best available technologies synergized to perfection. What's missing in today's products are desire and profit?

Yes, R10s and the like are uber products. IMO

It can, like the E9's and maybe the Denon 7000. To me hi end means the best of the best, and gets thrown around way too much.. The wording is used on most headphones in the 100 range. To me theres a huge discrepancy in what dictates what is hi end. If the SA5000 and R10 are both hi end they are on the same playing field, when many feel the R10's are leagues above the SA5000. It's like saying since Kobe Bryant and Derrick fFisher are both NBA players they are equal. This is clearly not the case, so those select few are honored with the title of super star. SA5000 midrange. R10, hi end.

[Robonaut]

Maybe I'm just simple minded, but, to me, high end is (1) based solely on price and (2) a simple matter of statistics.

In regards to point #1, if you try and use some criteria like "the item's main purpose is to produce quality audio" to define high end, then you run into the whole problem of defining what is "quality audio". The Grado GS-1000 and the Ultrasone Edition 9 have very different sound signatures (or so I've read)--because I like one and not the other, does that make the one I don't like automatically not "high end"?

Therefore, as I said, I think that what constitutes "high end" is based solely on the items' price. However, there is still a bit of subjectivism there, since we have to decide what price point constitutes the cutoff for "high end" status. I think that statistics can help us here.

Say, for example, that there are 500 million sets of headphones in the world, and the number of headphones break down into price categories as follows:

HEADPHONE
PRICE (in $)..........# OF OWNERS
0000-0049.............440,000,000
0050-0099.............40,275,000
0100-0149.............10,000,000
0150-0199.............5,000,000
0200-0249.............1,500,000
0250-0299.............1,000,000
0300-0349.............750,000
0350-0399.............400,000
0400-0449.............300,000
0450-0499.............200,000
0500-0549.............100,000
0550-0599.............90,000
0600-0649.............80,000
0650-0699.............70,000
0700-0749.............60,000
0750-0799.............50,000
0800-0849.............40,000
0850-0899.............30,000
0900-0949.............25,000
0950-0999.............17,000
1000-1049.............13,000

Based on the above, the mean price for a set of headphones would be $35.04 with a standard deviation of $49.96.

According to Chebychev's Theorem, 98% of the data is within seven standard deviations from the mean. So, if we decided that headphones are "high end" when they are in the 98th percentile or greater, then any headphone costing more than $384.76 would be "high end" headphones.

Now, obviously, the data I used is completely made up (but none entirely unreasonable, I think). But I do think that they serve to illustrate that, statistically, "high end" begins at a substantially lower price point than some people might think.

[zantetsuken]

i think high end should be something that follows these two criteria:

1. In terms of audio quality be an outstanding product as deemed by the head-fi community (notably a few high profile members who have personal experience with a large variety of gear are best to judge). I think a thread should be made with all the high end equipment and its RRP, and several people(who should be nomiated to be judges who have experience in a wide variety of equipment) can determine if the item is worthy of being high end audio.

2. Make Criteria (once again by the same people who judged the high end equipment) for every bit of equipment you can buy, say CD players, DAC, Headphones, Amps, divide into categories and set a price threshold for each category, and if the item crosses that threshold it is high end.

there should be a thread where people nominate items for approval to be high end, and the 'judges' can all give a score say outta 10, where 10 is high end 0 is not, to say how high end they think it is in terms of sonic quality, then take an average of the scores of all the judges and if it crosses say 5/10...then call it high end, this makes it a lot less subjective because several people are judging who have most experience, and since different bits of equipment cost more money than others, thats why there needs to be different thresholds.

its all complicated but read it again and im sure somehow it might make sense lol.

but if it still doesnt heres a simple way -> whoever wants to declare a high end item simply makes a nomination thread and make a poll going from 0 - 10 and let people vote, if its above 5, its high end. forget the price. once its accepted its high end, it can be put into a sticky thread and confirm it as high end.

if the item satisfies both criteria its high end. Enjoy.

[charliex]

High end - very subjective - once one is hooked on true audiophile listening experiences the search has just begun - the headphones and amps collection begins to grow and grow - a neverending quest for the sweet spot for the ultimate aural experience.