Smyth SVS Realiser Virtual Surround Technology for Headphones

[Mazz]

Originally Posted by Edwood

6. Date - in the summer - June, July, August .. to be decided

Now if I can just persuade the Meet Gods to smile on me one more time and move this to late October/early November when I'm going to be in LA...

(I happened to be in Fort Lauderdale the week leading up to CanJam '08, which was exceedingly handy since I live in Australia.)

[Edwood]

Originally Posted by Mazz

Now if I can just persuade the Meet Gods to smile on me one more time and move this to late October/early November when I'm going to be in LA...

(I happened to be in Fort Lauderdale the week leading up to CanJam '08, which was exceedingly handy since I live in Australia.)

We might be having a mini meet either way, you're more than welcome to come.

-Ed

[wavoman]

I was wrong in an earlier post -- the pdf version of the HeadZone Pro owner's manual is online.

http://northern-america.beyerdynamic..._CD_E_0208.pdf

Here is a quote right on the points made by rimrocks and Erik Garci --

When modelling a virtual control room for the Headzone system, we could have measured out some “legendary” control rooms and
put them into Headzone, but what would the benefit be for you if you were able to work in the virtual “Abbey Road Studios” ? You
have probably never worked there and perhaps never will in your lifetime… and even if you did… perhaps you would not like the
sound of the control room at all.

For the “Headzone Virtual Control Room” we decided to take a different approach: If THE perfect control room doesn’t exist, but
we know the qualities of a good reference listening room... why not allow you to adjust the listening room and create your OWN
perfect control room? In our opinion a good sounding control room is quite a personal thing and therefore flexible within certain
limits. It is perfect when you feel at home and comfortable with the room response and the distance perception. In other words,
when the room sounds plausible to you.

Most importantly, you should always be able to use the same listening conditions, even outside your studio, while recording, or
during listening sessions while travelling. This gives you all the benefits of a true reference listening room, where a sound engineer
can easily judge the quality of a recording. The more you work in that specific room, the easier you will be able to tell how this
would sound in any other environment. In addition, with Headzone, you are only a few mouse clicks away from listening to your
production in different environments to double check that what you have mixed for “living-room” conditions will also sound right in
a small car!

The Headzone virtual control room is therefore based on the qualities of a good reference listening room as described above, but
Headzone also allows the user to custom-design the sound characteristics of a loudspeaker system in a control room with just a few
mouse clicks. Adjustable parameters include all those effects that additionally affect the sound image in a real room and that are
omitted in conventional stereo headphones: the size of the room, the distance of the loudspeaker to the listener and the
characteristics of the control room.

We deliberately incorporated all parameters into just 3 sliders (Room Size, Distance and Ambience), which are easy to understand
and operate within a range of 0 to 100. In fact, when adjusting your personal control room, we want to encourage you to do what
you can do best: use your ears!

Just start playing around with the room parameters in your virtual control room. As soon as you feel that your setting sounds
realistic and convenient, you’ve made it! You’ve created your own reference control room, which you can now take with you
anywhere in the world.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by wavoman

We deliberately incorporated all parameters into just 3 sliders (Room Size, Distance and Ambience), which are easy to understand and operate within a range of 0 to 100.

Apparently it lets you customize the effect of the room, but not the effect of your head. Since it uses a generic HRTF, it probably won't sound as realistic as the SVS, which uses a personalized HRTF.

[wavoman]

That's a really interesting point, Erik.

With SVS, the room and speakers are what they are, and the in-ear mikes are used to build a filter for the DSP that is a convolution of the room acoustics and the HRTF. Your personal HRTF measures how your ear hears a particular frequency sourced from a particular location, and the room acoustics dictate how many of these sources hit you given a particular impulse from the speakers.

With the HeadZone, the filter for the DSP results from the convolution of the room acoustics you invent using the three sliders, and the HRTF of the measurement dummy. But you get to play with the sliders to make it sound good, i.e, realistic to your ears.

Your point re-stated is, I think (not to put words in your mouth, forgive me): it should end up sounding more "real" if your personal HRTF is actually measured (using real, physical speakers).

I think you are correct. Smyth's approach is a direct attack on figuring out what your ears hear. BUT it might just be that a more pleasing (and even realistic to some concert hall) soundstage for some source material can be created by using the three sliders.

Won't know until we try them both. Each is going to cost like $3K. Buying a HeadZone Pro, and hoping to sell it on eBay if it is the loser, and bringing it to Smyth Day ... is that the only way forward?

If I want to own the sound of a paticular speaker set, SVS wins, no contest. If I want the most pleasing soundstage for listening to a particular type of music using HPs with a head movement tracker ... well I still think that jury is out.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by wavoman

With the HeadZone, the filter for the DSP results from the convolution of the room acoustics you invent using the three sliders, and the HRTF of the measurement dummy. But you get to play with the sliders to make it sound good, i.e, realistic to your ears.

As I understand it, the sliders don't necessarily make the room sound more realistic or less realistic. They just make the room sound different, in terms of being larger or smaller, and drier or wetter. Choosing an extremely dry room might make it sound less realistic to a person, but maybe that person is just not familiar with what an extremely dry room would sound like in reality.

[wavoman]

I see what you mean. Another good point, Erik! Allow me to summarize:

If the HeadZone Pro sliders only let you change the placement and acoustic parameters of the virtual speaker room, it might not be flexible enough to compensate for the differences between the dummy's HRTF and your personal HRTF.

The Smyth system makes you live with the physical room (they hope, or help, you find a real good one!), but measures your individual HRTF quite well. Real precision there.

And if you have to choose one or the other, choose an accurate HRTF because at least you will hear something realistic, something real world by definition, while if you use a dummy HRTF then (no matter how you fiddle with the virtual room) every setting might sound fake.

I see that. Makes sense.

But Beyerdynamic is not stupid. They might put out a fake-sounding consumer "surround" system, but why would they risk their considerable reputation among recording artists with the claim that you can create a realistic studio sound, knowing that one listen from a pro to a bizarre-sounding not-of-this-earth processed surround imitation will lead to a return of this $3000+ item, and a black eye for them. On top of that, HeadZone Pro won a few of the 2007 pro "new product innovation" prizes -- of course these contests are manipulated by ad dollars, but still.

I can't find a U.S. dealer of the Pro yet. I have emailed an inquiry to Beyerdynamic. This is going to get interesting, IMHO.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by wavoman

And if you have to choose one or the other

You can have both on the SVS box. Just calibrate the SVS box to match the sound of the Headzone.

[wavoman]

LOL! Good one!

You know the HeadZone speakers are virtual and SVS only matches physical.

But you are actually on to something. Seriously. If the HeadZone system is any good, consider the following: use HeadZone to set up a wonderful virtual speaker system. Then leave the HeadZone cans on, but with the SVS ear mikes in your ears! Next do the SVS measurement, sending the 5 channel test signals of the SVS box to the HeadZone inputs.

Skip the final SVS test that corrects for the headphone-to-ear distance, you can't do it physically and it is already taken care of. (Assuming you use the same HP's for both, that you can switch the head move sensor; if not you would be very close anyway if the phones were similar)

I think this would actually work, SVS would simulate the virtual system. It would sound identical to the HeadZone, but you would never need any real speakers. A Head-Fi community could buy one HeadZone and loan it to every individual who buys an SVS. Having an SVS is better than having their own HeadZone, since they can still model real speakers, use the SD card, etc. BUT here's the thing -- if they have a small listening room, don't have great speakers, etc. they can still listen every day to a huge, expansive room with a wide soundstage without having to visit one ... in fact a room they design (virtually) themselves.

Beyer hasn't answered me, bummer. If I can actually get a HeadZone Pro we could really try this at Smyth day!

I think Smyth plans to build in some pre-designed profiles based on great rooms, which accomplishes sort of the same thing, but these filters (by definition) are not personalized like the HeadZone virtual room and output would be. First you 'zone alone, then you smyth when you're in the 'zone.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by wavoman

Then leave the HeadZone cans on, but with the SVS ear mikes in your ears! Next do the SVS measurement, sending the 5 channel test signals of the SVS box to the HeadZone inputs.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by wavoman

Skip the final SVS test that corrects for the headphone-to-ear distance, you can't do it physically and it is already taken care of.

I think you should still do the final test. Before you start the final test, you simply take off the Headzone headphones and put on the SVS headphones. The SVS box already knows what the Headzone headphones sound like, since the SVS box has already measured them, so you no longer wear the Headzone headphones during the final test (similar to how you no longer listen to real speakers during the final test). During the final test, the SVS box measures the SVS headphones and figures out how to make them match the sound of the Headzone headphones.

[wavoman]

Yes, I see your point. You are 100% correct and out-thought me.

[I really believed you were joking the first time, kinda making fun of my back-and-forth on HeadZone vs SVS].

You've come up with a very viable procedure. Buy a Smyth, borrow a HeadZone Pro, design a fantastic room, capture and own it ... all without having to travel or set up speakers.

We could try this at meets. Why won't Beyer answer my emails? You'd think they'd want to sell me a HeadZone Pro.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by wavoman

[I really believed you were joking the first time, kinda making fun of my back-and-forth on HeadZone vs SVS].

I was kind of joking and being serious at the same time.

[bozebuttons]

At the demo at canjam I had picked up a old Widesrcreen Review magazine in the Smyth room that they had available.

Complete review of the system & description& interview,done in sept 2004.

For all who are interested you can subscribe & download the article,very informative.

DVD Reviews, Home Theater Equipment Reviews, Home Theatre Setup Audio Video Equipment Review, Widescreen Review Webzine Do a search issue #88

[wavoman]

Do we have a date in August yet for the field trip to Smyth? [There's a NJ meet forming around the end of July so if the Smyth visit is July I'm out].

Three emails to Beyer and still no answer on where in the U.S. I can audition/buy the Headzone Pro. But I just got a new email address for their support group [I bought the 600 ohm 880's direct] and I will see if they are more responsive than the general inquiry or U.S. pro sales email group addresseds that I tried. Frustrating.

[SunDevil]

Nobody ever tried Headzone???