A Head-fi headphone loaner programme

[Zanth]

Before I begin, I want to say a big thank you to this forum. To Jude for structuring this place such that a real community could flourish and prosper. The web is a fantastic environment for like-minds to encounter each other. No doubt, our love of music drives this place but our niche within a niche is something few really understand even if they can hear the advantages of finely reproduced music.

Music though is not something to take for granted. In fact, as Bono has remarked: "Music can change the world because it can change people."

This is very true. It can motivate a people to organize and fight for a grand cause. It can move people to tears causing great introspection. It brings one closer to oneself as well as to society as a whole. No human creation has the power to transcend like music.

Taking a handful of powerful quotes about music from great thinkers:

I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us.
Martin Luther


Without music, life would be an error. The German imagines even God singing songs
Friedrich Nietzsche

Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue.
Plato

All deep things are song. It seems somehow the very central essence of us, song; as if all the rest were but wrappages and hulls!
Thomas Carlyle

Take a music bath once or twice a week for a few seasons. You will find it is to the soul what a water bath is to the body.
Oliver Wendell Holmes

Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass?
Michael Torke

Music is what feelings sound like.
Author Unknown

Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life.
Ludwig van Beethoven

Music cleanses the understanding; inspires it, and lifts it into a realm which it would not reach if it were left to itself.
Henry Ward Beecher

Music's the medicine of the mind.
John A. Logan

Music is the universal language of mankind.
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.
Victor Hugo

Music is an outburst of the soul
Frederick Delius

Its language is a language which the soul alone understands, but which the soul can never translate.
Arnold Bennett

Music expresses feeling and thought, without language; it was below and before speech, and it is above and beyond all words.
Robert G. Ingersoll

Music is the literature of the heart; it commences where speech ends.
Alphonse de Lamartine


Why are these quotes so important? They seem to reveal a central theme and thought about music, that it is beyond nature, beyond empirical science, beyond materialism. It is something other, something very much imcomprehensible. Trying to stay away from anything theological...it does tend to reveal that what music accomplishes is not readily empiracally validated. Even with wonderful works "This is your brain on music" neurologists have difficulty pinpointing exactly what music is all about.

No doubt for us, we are gathered to get the most out of music. Whereas many know they enjoy music, few really tend to understand it. Appreciation of well reproduced music takes great music and elevates it to another level, providing the listener with an experience that could only be superceded by listening to the performers live (and in some instances, the recordings sound better and are enjoyed in a better environment).

I first felt that music was something unique when I first heard a clarinet. It was played by a friend of mine and the sound touched me in a way that took hold of me. I immediately wanted to learn how to play this instrument and so I set off to learn in conjunction with the piano. Over the years, I had not been truly touched by music again(perhaps because being schooled in music somehow diminished my enjoyment of it) until I started to perform on stage. The first time I performed, I felt a rush of emotion that mimicked those emotions I felt when I first heard the clarinet. Each time I would get into the "zone" onstage I would revisit these emotions. Somehow uniting with my soul in a way I couldn't seem to in nearly any other way.

Later in life, I would encounter these same emotions when I first heard the Grado SR60's. My first venture into audiophilia, I was exposed to sound reproduction that made me sit up and take notice. I was washed in sound that seemed unnatural, near transcendental. I would sit for hours straight listening to CD after CD wondering why others were not into better gear to get closer to the music. Thus started my life-long relationship with better gear for better enjoyment of music.

It wasn't until I encountered Headwize and soon afterwards, Head-fi that I was able to bond with like-minded individuals. Not just music lovers, not just audiophiles, but Headphiles.

My time here has been wonderful and though like everything in life, there are times of ups and downs, Head-fi tends to be way up before it every hints at heading down. In fact, I have met some of my very closest friends on this board and they remain virtual only, though I hope to meet up with each one of them at some point in my life.

Among them have been wonderfully generous people who have let me borrow their gear or have helped me out in other ways. I can't ever adequately repay them for these experiences but I can "pay it forward" as it were. At least in a small way. Those who have touched me here know who they are and again I say thank you so very much. You have helped me not only on this journey of audiophilia but also in life because music is very much a part of me.

Thus, to give back to the community, I have been debating starting a Head-fi loaner programme. The potential for good is great, but the potential for disaster is not all that remote.

What could come of this? Well, if everything goes as planned, a whole lot of members would have the opportunity to listen to headphones they otherwise might not have the chance to hear without buying first. This may open their eyes and help them in their purchasing decisions. It might also give them, if only for a short time, some wholly awesome experiences enjoying music in a way they might otherwise never have had the opporunity to enjoy.

Of course, the flip side is that something could go wrong. Three things come to mind. The first is that the headphones are lost/damaged in transit. This is a real possibility but headphones are generally more robust than electronics, so the damaged part unless really given a solid whomping by the courier agents, would be more unlikely, but getting lost...sure this could happen. To help against loss or damage at the hands of the courier, insurance would be mandatory when shipping.

The second is that the phones become damaged when in the possession of the member. Things happen. Cats, kids, entropy, whatever... Life happens and sometimes headphone get damaged or destroyed. If they were to become damaged by an "act of God" (flood, lightning, earth quake, hurricane) then ideally home insurance would cover the damages if the "act" doesnt' fall under that "act of God" exclusion policy. Again, everything would be taken care of in time. Other things like fires, home theft etc, should be covered under regular home insurance in loss/damage policy so again we would be okay. But, if home insurance can't cover the damage because it was damaged in some other way, say spilling a liquid on them or having the dog devour them in a fit of rage, well then it would take the good nature of that person to step up and have them repaired and replaced. Here we start down a very steep and slippery slope: depending on the good will of others, i.e., trust.

The third and most destructive possibility is that a person's good nature would take a turn for the worst and they would steal the headphones. Disappearing from the site. This could happen to the most well respected member as it could to some unknown newbie.

Should I then proceed with my idea or have it halted before it gets out there in the world because of the possibilites of disaster?

Because of how great this place is, and overall how wonderful this community is, I am going to go out on a limb and test out the programme. I want to help expose as many people to great listening pleasure via better heapdhones as I can. This is worth the risk.

So how will it work? I'm not entirely sure yet to be honest.

How should it work? I have some ideas. The first policy would be that there is no entitlement. This has nothing to do with Head-fi itself or Jude, though perhaps in the future, it could in more than an abstract way. It has nothing to do with one's membership, as in, just because one is a member they are owed the chance to listen. No. This is not the case. Though these headphones will be purchased by me, I don't intend to ever possess them, use them, see them. When I buy them, I will have them shipped to the first person on the list and ideally they will begin a very long life of travel around the world. That said, I will be the one organizing the programme and if things go south in one way or the other I will expect the headphones back. I want these to essentially be the Forums' phones.

To start with, I am going to purchase two pairs of Grado SR-60's.

Why the SR-60's? For two reasons: the first is that these phones were my first exposure to audiophilia and they are very well regarded by Grado fans and non-fans alike. They are "giant killers," real ones. Few phones possess the overall quality of the SR60's at a great price. Which leads to my second reason, they are rather inexpensive and can take a beating. I can afford to pick up two pairs and do a test run of this programme. The first pair will remain in North America and the second will be sent to Europe. I know many Europeans have a tough time hearing Grados so I hope this will really benefit them.

If all goes well, once I graduate school (presumably finding a good job) I'll buy higher up through the line, maybe stepping up to the SR80's or maybe going directly to the SR-225's. My eventual plan is to have one of each Grado out there on each continent or quadrant of the world and then to move on to other companies as well.

The rules would be something like this:

I have in mind a 1-2 months listening time. 1 month should be more than enough but 2 months might seem more enticing given rule #2.

Shipping would have to be covered by the person shipping the phones. This is to help with the "pay it forward" idea. We would try to have it set up so that a person from the West coast wouldn't have to ship out to the East, keeping costs down as much as possible. Now, I realize that starting out with $70 headphones, shipping them out for $15-20 may not seem like a great deal to some, but hopefully the overall idea of the experience and the programme will be enough to keep it going and motivate people to participate.

Shipping would always include insurance for the actual value of the item and for a signature on delivery. I don't want to have anyone have the temptation of claiming they never received the item and then pocketting the phones. Shipping would also be standardized to some decent delivery time. No ground shipping or regular air. Express at least.

Pictures would be required to be sent to me which I will host. Pictures before sending the phones and pictures upon receiving them from each party. Ideally we would see pics before packed, packed (non-damaged box) and then on receipt, the box, then opened box and finally close ups of the phones. I want to know the phones are being taken care of. This helps also keep track of their condition over time.

The hardest rule now is the one that needs some serious thought. Who is eligible to participate?

I don't think the rules would need to be any more than the first four and the final eligibility one. Respect and trust are the two major aspects of this programme. I've been shafted in the past by folks when participating in community run programmes like the CD exchange where I have not received my gift twice now, which really really sucks, it makes me quite unmotivated to continue it or at least have me organize and participate in it. The first time was by a rather unknown member, pretty much a young newbie. The second time was by a very active member and that left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth.

Other members have tried a programme like this, though more unofficial, where they have loaned out headphones and then folks just keep them or claim they never arrived and conveniently disappear from the forums. Major members have outright stolen cash from people and never returned to pay them back or send out the gear that was promised. Whereas some brand new members have shown themselves to be stand up individuals willing to participate in a wonderful community. Should these good people be denied access expressly when this programme has as an intension to help folks in their purchasing decisions?

I'm at odds on this point and for that reason I'm starting this thread so I can get feedback regarding who ought to have permission to participate. How we will go about this etc. To start the programme, I won't deny it will first go to someone I know personally (if such a person is on the list) because I will hope the programme will start strong. I'm not as concerned at this point of the phones dispappearing, but it would really hurt if I had a pair of AKG k1000's, or some RS-1's or HE60's out there that get pinched. Everything might go smoothly until the higher end phones get out into circulation. I suppose I can deal with that when the time comes.

Anyhow, your input on how to structure the list would be appreciated.

[stewtheking]

First off, your generosity is heartwarming, Zanth, thankyou.

Secondly, however, I have some reservations about the practicality of the system, particularly with regards to lower-end gear. Obviously, it makes sense to start with lower-end stuff, iron out the practicalities of the situation before more hefty chunks of change jet around the world, but I'm not sure how valuable sending the SR-60 around is going to be. This is largely because the people who are most likely to benefit from the ability to hear what is essentially an entry-level can are beginners. Say the list is 10 people long, even if there are 2 of these floating around, at 2 months a turn that's going to mean it's over 10 months before they get a listen.

This of course would not be the case for the higher-end gear floating around. I'm sure a great many members at my sort of level in the community ("finished" rig(s) but not heard all of the possibilities floating around) would be happy to wait around for a year to get their turn on some higher-end cans.

Whilst I am not knocking the idea in principle, I think this is a hole that needs looking into. This question of current-gear-status for instance could dictate how valuable the lending/listening experience would be for the individual, and therefore possibly how far up the list they go?

Just some thoughts...

[Luminette]

As far as eligibility goes, I think it should require a certain amount of existing head-fi feedback (hopefully from deals with people who are long-standing members?) as well as having currently been active

I also think that the eligibility standards should scale up depending on the price of the phones

I allllso think that a month is way too long, and two weeks is more than enough to give a person a good taste.

It's definitely a risky idea.. and, well, I'm sure you won't have problems finding enough people to participate even with strict standards for eligibility- no need to risk it for yourself and everyone else. I think you can go to relatively high measures to ensure the safety of your proposed program while keeping it the list of participants abundant. Even with a rate of two weeks a user. I think that much is just a must or things would move like molasses.

It would also be nice to encourage reviews of the phones by the people, to contribute even more to head-fi's pool of knowledge.. not only giving some feedback on those model of phones but giving more people a shot to do some more reviewing and analyzing of sonic aspects

I think your idea is great, and I sincerely commend you for your appreciative and giving nature here

YGPM with other details of my own opinions of specifics for the requirements

[Zanth]

Originally Posted by stewtheking

Whilst I am not knocking the idea in principle, I think this is a hole that needs looking into. This question of current-gear-status for instance could dictate how valuable the lending/listening experience would be for the individual, and therefore possibly how far up the list they go?

Just some thoughts...

Good insights and I thought of them too; however, I think that for those say in Europe, even the lowly SR60's would get quite a bit of attention because of the pricing in European countries. Many haven't even seen a pair let alone heard one all because of their apparent scarcity.

Over here, although at first glance it may seem like only newbies would be considering the SR60's there are quite a few folks who are established in the hobby who might want to try out a Grado but never wanted to plunk down the cash on them because if they didn't like them, they would have to eat a good amount of cash to sell them off. Of course we both know there is no arm-twisting here, so anyone that wants to hear them (and meets whatever the eligibility criteria is) would be placed in the queue. If they didn't want to wait it out, they could buy them themselves. As you say, they aren't very expensive so the financial obstacle of getting into the game would be less for anyone with ants in their pants.

If this really goes well, I would want to pick up some Senn HD580's and the 595's. I haven't heard these headphones for a long time and would love to spend some time with them and then send them on their way. I am not interested in owning them, but I would like to revisit their sound. Same goes for the 501's or 701's. Not overly expensive (particularly the 501's) but not something I would usually buy and try and then sell. This programme for someone like me, would let me hear something different from a company I don't usually buy from. If I could source out a dozen KSC 35's I'd throw those out into the wild as well. Sure they are $20 phones but they too are giant killers and many might be elated to listen to an el cheapo pair of active headphones that trounce mega buck headphones in many ways. One can get a whole lotta sound from dirt cheap gear. One doesn't need $1000 headphones and another grand in amplification. Of course, it doens't hurt either I think this type of programme can benefit the newbie as well as the established head-fier precisely because they don't have to spend money outside of the shipping to the next person. For the cost of a movie and some grub, one can enjoy a couple of months of music listening to a new headphone. It might motivate them to read up on a certain companies "sound" and maybe buy that model or buy up in the line. I know that if this goes REALLY well in the years to come and if K1000's are readily available, I would love to buy and try and if I loved them keep one pair and then send out another pair into the wild. If other members begin to donate headphones too, everyone wins so long as no one crashes the system.

[Luminette]

Originally Posted by stewtheking

Secondly, however, I have some reservations about the practicality of the system, particularly with regards to lower-end gear. Obviously, it makes sense to start with lower-end stuff, iron out the practicalities of the situation before more hefty chunks of change jet around the world, but I'm not sure how valuable sending the SR-60 around is going to be. This is largely because the people who are most likely to benefit from the ability to hear what is essentially an entry-level can are beginners.

I had these thoughts as well.. the newer people to audiophilia would be the ones to be most interested in these entry level grados.. and newer means riskier, certainly

I don't think pure fresh newbs with nothing to offer towards reliability should be allowed. Period. Obviously these people would benefit the most but opening the door to risks like that can just bring a screeching halt to this relatively rare opportunity for everybody

As for higher-end cans, well- Definitely not until this entry level program has been running for a bit. And the eligibility would have to scale up.. maybe perks for those who completed the first round with no issues and also meet the raised bar of eligibility there?

Lots of thoughts

Everybody ponder, post, let's work the kinks out of this and get it off of the ground!


Edit: Some people simply haven't heard that famed Grado sound and so I think a good deal of not-totallly-fresh-newbs would be interested in giving that a poke. And x2 on the Europe availability point Zanth

[Zanth]

Originally Posted by Luminette

As far as eligibility goes, I think it should require a certain amount of existing head-fi feedback (hopefully from deals with people who are long-standing members?) as well as having currently been active

I also think that the eligibility standards should scale up depending on the price of the phones

I allllso think that a month is way too long, and two weeks is more than enough to give a person a good taste.

More great insights. Since the cost of shipping for the time being at least won't be all that much, again, the cost of a movie and popcorn, perhaps you are right, 2 weeks would be enough so that this actually goes somewhere. I also really like the idea of urging people to write up their impressions so the site benefits even more from the exchange.

I agree about the higher end gear and requiring more stringent eligibility. No doubt, once the phones get too pricey for me to simply write off I would want to know they are going to people who have at least some stake in this community. But as I wrote originally, there have been examples of such people who have really taken members for a ride. A former moderator is one of them, walking away with thousands of dollars on the premise that he would modify and/or completely rebuild some amps. That never happened, and he was gone without a trace. In my books, I would have sent him nearly anything in my home setup because I trusted him so much. Who knew? So although I am right on board with the stringency escalating with the value of the gear, it certainly isn't a clear safety feature. Not that you were implying it is or would be. If ever I struck it really rich and I could afford to get one of everything out there, I couldn't see any other way than some form of escrow service for the really pricey stuff.

[Luminette]

Definitely

I am assaulting you with ideas both PM and here in replies

Here's a paste of that PM just to keep all the ideas and what not here together on this thread-

"I would say maybe three or five pieces of feedback here on head-fi as entry level eligibility

Another idea that just came to me is having very trustable members vouch for someone? This one opens a lot of dirty risks but is worth putting some exploration into.. my brain feels a bit fried right now but I'll definitely do as much myself at some point here

I think anyone with higher-level Grados should probably be ineligible for pretty obvious reasons. They may want to compare and all but that would be a really minor use in comparison to that which the others would find

I think your photographing idea is great, as well as the insuring and delivery confirmation being mandatory

Perhaps make it a requirement to speak to any applicants over the phone? To at least secure their phone number and some level of human connection there first.. may help to 'impose' a level of security there, and I don't think it at all unreasonable that a person phone you (or someone else since that might end up beyond bothersome?) if they mean to 'register' for the program

It all seems managable

Another thing to go by?: Contributors to the forum. I think if they have that bold blue highlighted underscored username here on the forums signifying a donation, that speaks some towards their character and could definitely be a useful factor for evaluating 'applicants'

Lum"

And now the latest wave:

Running multiple programs and having people who have program-completion specific feedback? xXxXX completed the program for the sr60s, the hfi-780s and the blahblahblahs. This could help and also urge a level of want in people towards staying clean so that they can participate in future programs. Though of course all normal standards would still have to be fine

We could get a programs subforum specifically to sticky and keep track of officially adopted ones that launch off, and have the unlaunched ones floating as normal threads in that subforum.

If you do a program for these SR-60s, I'll do a program for a pair of $50-100 headphones. We could adopt a universal set of regulations to apply to all programs and uhh.. well there are a lot of options. Gonna PM Jude strictly to draw attention to this thread and these ideas.


This could also potentially enable us a brand new level of cohesion and experiences with all of our sponsors here. They would gain the ability to run loaner programs more frequently using the very tip top of qualificants via all of these fields of criteria. This of course would mean more information for head-fi as a whole, a tighter bond with and potentially better sales for sponsors? And more feedback for them(Helping them should ultimately help us, and, what's wrong with helping them? they do make this as possible for us as jude himself, our moderators and everybody who donates and contributes any sort of knowledge or opinion here!) and it will add to the amount of experience head-fiers get with equipment.. and should overall increase the quality of our already incredible community.

And I've only just begun with the brainstorming for this.. if this earns any serious interest and success, I will personally devote serious attention to developing the growth of this through security and amount of programs going on and, well, whatever I can.

This is entirely an option to be run by the users only, though I'd imagine it would surely be adopted in some sort of official manner after some initial success.

But, if nothing else, we'll start small and Zanth can run the first program and I'll fire off a second right after

'Official' adoption or not, give us a sub-forum and I will spearhead this hard

[Syler]

I don't quite understand everything in this thread maybe because my english is not perfect but anyway I can do one program like this. I am only a student with no job but I have some money saved up to do something like this so I am up for it, see how it goes...Maybe somebody could explain it to me little bit more PM me
Patrick

[ken36]

Cool.

[Uncle Erik]

A generous idea, but there are a lot of pitfalls. The trouble is that it is difficult to judge honesty in others. Too bad it takes so much time to plan and organize meets; those are the ideal forum for trying new headphones.

What about asking the manufacturers (several of whom are sponsors) to institute a loan program? They could send out refurbs on receipt of a deposit. Refund the deposit when the headphones are returned and maybe give the buyer a 5% or 10% discount (or a free t-shirt or hat or something) in exchange for participating in the loaner program. This would build goodwill with potential customers and a deposit would enforce honesty. Maybe I'm too cynical, but it seems that any item of value will go missing without an enforcement mechanism.

[Wmcmanus]

Amazing gesture on your part, Jason, and you're doing it for all of the right reasons. Please, please, anyone who participates in the program, treat each of these lovely creatures as though it was your only child - with love and affection, and with the utmost care and respect.

BTW, I loved some of those quotes. Thanks for sharing them too.

[1117]

I'd add one thing to the program: a logsheet.

Yes. A handwritten logsheet that accompanies the cans wherever it goes. I think it'd be kinda neat to receive a pair of cans and see where the cans have traveled! In a way, it adds to the sense of "community."

[Luminette]

Originally Posted by 1117

I'd add one thing to the program: a logsheet.

Yes. A handwritten logsheet that accompanies the cans wherever it goes. I think it'd be kinda neat to receive a pair of cans and see where the cans have traveled! In a way, it adds to the sense of "community."

That is a good idea.

[Akathisia]

Originally Posted by Luminette

I would say maybe three or five pieces of feedback here on head-fi as entry level eligibility

Although I would probably not try to participate due to my single poor piece of feedback, I would like to say that most people with 3-5 pieces of feddback are going to have gear.

Those 3-5 sales may be music, but I think you will mostly see people that have that much feedback have probably moved up the chain past SR-60's.

Just food for thought. Ideas like the one in this thread could help bring together the community, which I am all about.

(also, on the side of the contributor, is there a way to become one without using PayPal. I know I would be one if I didn't have to use it.)

[manaox2]

I would love to contribute. Its important to make sure those involved can afford to package and ship these phones for 1/3rd of the cost.

This program reminds me of "The sisterhood of the traveling pants", except with a 20 to 30 year old mostly male crowd and instead of 13-year old girls and jeans. Though, very seriously, I like the idea of listening to these phones and reading others impressions and experiences that are packaged with them. I would really love to participate, but will stick it out for a while seeing as I recently owned the SR60 (well worth trying) and would much rather give others the chance.

I know not everyone can lend out phones to the program, but if everyone sent in a relatively small amount of money (say $10), there would be more phones being passed around in rotation meaning less time spent waiting. It may not be polite to ask for $10, but I think it is in good spirit and shows the willingness to be trustful and serious. If things go well, I'm sure that generosity will grow and more and more phones will be passed into rotation.

I can see almost see a whole new sub-forum now with a thread on each pair of phones with pictures from tracking and impressions that are updated. Good luck getting this off of the ground!