Leaving portable hifi - it's too silly

[wuwhere]

Well, I got started from accidentally reading Stereophile and TAS at a bookstore many moons ago. This stuff is easier than aligning a moving coil cartridge on an air bearing tonearm. But the level of enjoyment is the same.

[fhuang]

i do think sometimes it's too much effort to just search for the best(right) rig. both home and portable. i suppose Luminette, you meant you want the right rig, right? px100 ain't exactly simple and cheap. to us, or mostly headfier, maybe. to regular people, they use stock bud or whatever comes with the dap. happy for you to finally got your right rig.

[mirumu]

Originally Posted by Nick H.

If I leave the amp at home I always think "dammit, I'm not hearing all the music. This is a wasted listening experience."

To me that's far more of a sad situation. If you need a $2500 portable rig to enjoy your music then I'm sorry for you and your wallet. My home system kills my portable one, but it doesn't make me enjoy my music any less when on the go.

[Luminette]

Originally Posted by mirumu

To me that's far more of a sad situation. If you need a $2500 portable rig to enjoy your music then I'm sorry for you and your wallet. My home system kills my portable one, but it doesn't make me enjoy my music any less when on the go.

Bingo

[Maxvla]

I completely agree with the OP. I never understood the whole amp/dac/lod craze. I have my DAP and IEMs and thats it. Nice and compact. Not that my setup is geared towards being low-fi, but I just don't care enough about the quality while I'm most likely jogging or doing other things that require my focus while I'm listening.

[Nick H.]

Ok, here are UK prices for my amp and IEMs, and the current dollar conversion:

RudiStor NKK-01se: 990 euros, or $1290
ACS T2: £499, or $827. (Bear in mind that the British Pound is on the floor right now. It wasn't long ago that £499 was $1000.)

I'm not really sure why the OP's headphones are relevant to his own thread because you can't (well, I wouldn't) wear them in public. Plus I wanted custom IEMs that seal the ear so that I could listen at a safe volume without being bothered by traffic noise etc, and I didn't want any leakage to disturb other people.

But I did borrow some Grado GS-1000 headphones (£900, $1493) because I wanted to see what the RudiStor was capable of and find out how much SQ I would be missing out on by having IEMs instead of headphones. I used to own some much loved RS-1s for use with my Mark Levinson, so of course I assumed the GS-1000s would be much, much better than the T2s. But they weren't - they were substantially worse!

Baffled I went to the ACS factory and interviewed the owner/designer (for a newspaper) to find out how his IEMs can possibly be better than the best Grados. And he explained it to me. So now I'm satisfied that my $827 IEMs are much better than any $1500 headphones (even though admittedly I've only tried Grados) and MUCH, MUCH better value.

The real winner in my rig is the RudiStor - it's just so absurdly good it shouldn't be legal! OK, at 1.7 pounds it's damn heavy but I listen to it on the train, or running or cycling, so it ticks all my portability boxes. Not many people will pay that much for a portable amp, but they really have missed out. The amp is not in production now because hardly any were sold. There's just no market to speak of. I tested the 18th one made for a newspaper about two years after it had been released. I was the only journalist who ever borrowed one. I doubt that more than 25 were sold in total. So I suppose the newspaper was right not to publish my article because it was "too niche." But dammit, it's like having a recording studio quality system in your pocket! It's life-changing! Everybody should have one!

I also tested a bunch of Crystal interconnects and bought a midrange one for 126 euros or $164. I couldn't discern any improvement in the more expensive ones.

Bottom line is that having listened to some of the very best HUGE hi-fi equipment which has to be delivered by two guys in a tail-lift truck I'm immensely pleased to have traded down to my portable rig. And I'm dismayed to hear that so many enthusiasts in this forum aren't having it so good.

[upstateguy]

Originally Posted by jinp6301

ipod + px100 =

On the mark Jin... another vote for the px100s

[Sansa Clip + px100s, here]

USG

[mirumu]

Originally Posted by Nick H.

So now I'm satisfied that my $827 IEMs are much better than any $1500 headphones (even though admittedly I've only tried Grados) and MUCH, MUCH better value.

You said quite a lot there that I don't think will really stand up to scrutiny, but this is the most glaring in my eyes. Exactly how small a subset of headphones are you comparing here? Are you suggesting that all $1500 headphones sound exactly the same? That they all sound equally good from any amp/source? That spending $1500 actually tells you anything about the sound quality you're going to end up with at all? It's probably a good thing that you already know you've got the best there is as it'll save you some money. Unfortunately I've never developed the skill of being able to evaluate all the systems I haven't yet heard.

[sbulack]

Whenever someone posts that they don't hear their money's worth from a rig constructed of generally praised pieces of audio gear, it is a very good case in point of the brute force fact (attested to in MANY threads) that we actually and honestly hear things differently. Fortunately for my wallet, my taste for wines is cheap, er, basic. I honestly and actually enjoy a bottle of $7 - $15 red or white wine of a variety of types FAR more than I enjoy a bottle of $40 - $100 wine of the same types - each picked intelligently using input from experienced, non-ingrown, tasters. My taste in audio gets me back, monetarily, for that. I honestly and actually enjoy listening to the rigs in my sig, portable and stationary, WAY more than to rigs that I used to own, constructed of intelligently selected components which were all less expensive. I enjoyed those previous rigs, a LOT. And I enjoy these rigs a LOT MORE.

I started out very modestly, and I built up to what I have today over a five year period, one piece of gear, or a few related pieces of gear at a time, with lots of reading, research and risk management strategies used to optimize the value, to me, of each purchase.

That others have audio tastes which are more comparable to my wine tastes is perfectly expected by me, and those of us who hear things differently don't have any basis on which to disagree with the different things heard by others or any need to reiterate or defend our own different hearing of those same things. For folks who are happier with the sound of more basic audio gear which can be built from less expensive components, it would be good if they realize that not everyone will hear things as they do, and that, for others, it can be a "good buy" or "money well spent" for others to enrich their lives through the purchase and use of audio gear which costs more than that which most enriches their own lives. Similarly, it can be the best use of money for others to NOT spend it on audio gear, but to save it for their futures, to engage in the joy of philanthropy or to buy more music or better wine (watches, pens, cameras, espresso machines, ...).

I'm going to sound like Dr. Phil here, but "It's OK to hear things the way each of us hears them." Those who hear things as Luminette does would be wise to realize that and to select those audio purchases which will contribute genuine enrichment to their lives, and to avoid those which do not. Those who hear things more as I do would likewise be wise to realize that and to select rather different purchases which will add the most genuine enrichment to their lives. Each person new to audio would be wise to run experiments with the most acceptable non-recoverable costs to determine what their own audio tastes and goals are.

I do think that each of us needs to realize that we genuinely and honestly hear things differently, and to pursue audio, and to interact with each other, with a realization and expectation of just HOW differently we can hear the same things. We don't have to debunk, explain away, or warn others away from each others' very different experiences.

There have been LOTS of threads, like this one started by Luminette, in which folks have purchased rigs of gear that others have given high praise and have heard either NO difference from a pair of modest phones straight out of a modest audio source or that they actually prefer the sound from modest equipment to that from the more expensive "higher end" gear. I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine. I would hope that other folks happier with more basic audio equipment don't feel any mission to "debunk", "explain away" or warn others away from my experiences because they are different from their own.

I'm asking that we all realize and expect that we hear things differently, to add to Head-Fi honest posts saying what we hear, and to leave it to folks making pursuit-of-audio decisions to first decide which posters' ears are most like their own - and to lean more on those posters' posts for advice in their own pursuit of audio happiness. Can we avoid calling what others hear and pursue that is different from us things like, "sad", "a waste", "stupid", "<your favorite condescending, reductionist or perjorative word/phrase here>"? At least, can we all give it an honest try? Can we do that in this thread, and carry it to other, and eventually all, threads? I include myself in the list of folks to whom I make this request.

For the two of you who made it to the end of this epic and pedantic post (optimistic, aren't I?) , I applaud you for your dogged perseverance, and, in thanks, I "now return control of your browser to you until you join me next time for a journey reaching from the inner dimensions to ... 'The Outer Limits' ".

[Luminette]

lol. I'll offer some minor scrutiny there on the Nick H stuff.

Yes, you can wear the Edition 9s anywhere you please. I do, and know others who do. Is this supposed to be based on their being full-sized cans? Silly stuff

And on the note of your wanting ear sealing IEMs, there's a really good chance that the Ed 9s, and plenty of other closed cans, have better isolation. The Sennheiser HD280 Pros have 40db of isolation which stomps out really everything else - IEMs and other circumaurals. And they're a $80-90 headphone. Both of these phones are also great with not leaking sound.

As for your thinking that your IEMs are better than the GS-1000s, it's very possible, but I would also assert that it's overall unlikely. I'd think it more reasonable that your IEMs more specifically fit your personal tastes - that they appease what ranks as the most important to you, or simply exemplifies some things that stand out the most to you. And what was your listening experience like with the GS-1000s? How long? was it your own music? how quiet was the environment, were you even sitting down?

As for your overall pleasure with your portable rig (which sounds like even more a massive monstrosity than what's in the OP) while having listened (how long? was it your own music? how quiet was the environment, were you even sitting down?) to stuff that has to be "delivered by two guys in a truck", I guess I'm glad that you're content with this?

I don't think you've remotely addressed how much your portable rig pales in the face of a home implementation of the same price point.

I think all you're really saying is that you're happy?

PS - why do you have a portable amp that costs you twice as much as your portable headphones? I'm not really asking you this.

[Luminette]

and for sbulack's post:

You seem pretty focused on equalizing/neutralizing things in the name of difference. I've not neglected the idea of personal tastes here - I find it hard to imagine that most can really be unaware of that reality, though too many are.

I'm not inclined to go with your conclusions because they seem fully unconcerned

("I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine.")

with the possibility that a lot of this stuff really could be and is overpriced poo in a box? Or any of the other points made in the OP and here after. Or, really, that there is any other possibility than that people just hear things differently.

This is the kind of problem-diluting stuff that keeps people from really knowing the scoop around here. I'm going to go add this to the list of how this audio-idiocy zeitgeist is sustained

I think your post is meant to smooth things over and please people but my personal opinion is that you'd be doing them more a favor if you were more interested in being objective and considerate beyond what seems to be your final plateau - that people are different and experience things differently. If that stood for half a second, why are you a head-fier since 2003? Unless you strictly avoid all content here pertaining to impressions.

[upstateguy]

Originally Posted by sbulack

Whenever someone posts that they don't hear their money's worth from a rig constructed of generally praised pieces of audio gear....

There have been LOTS of threads, like this one started by Luminette, in which folks have purchased rigs of gear that others have given high praise and have heard either NO difference from a pair of modest phones straight out of a modest audio source or that they actually prefer the sound from modest equipment to that from the more expensive "higher end" gear....

Ig Nobel Prize for placebo effect:

"Duke University behavioral economist Dan Ariely won an Ig Nobel for his study that found
more expensive fake medicines work better than cheaper fake medicines.

"When you expect something to happen, your brain makes it happen," Ariely said...."

But don't worry, this doesn't happen in our hobby.

USG

For further reading, google: Richard Clark - Amplifier challenge; David Clark - Amplifier test

[upstateguy]

Originally Posted by Luminette

and for sbulack's post:

You seem pretty focused on equalizing/neutralizing things in the name of difference. I've not neglected the idea of personal tastes here - I find it hard to imagine that most can really be unaware of that reality, though too many are.

I'm not inclined to go with your conclusions because they seem fully unconcerned

("I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine.")

with the possibility that a lot of this stuff really could be and is overpriced poo in a box? Or any of the other points made in the OP and here after. Or, really, that there is any other possibility than that people just hear things differently.

This is the kind of problem-diluting stuff that keeps people from really knowing the scoop around here. I'm going to go add this to the list of how this audio-idiocy zeitgeist is sustained

I think your post is meant to smooth things over and please people but my personal opinion is that you'd be doing them more a favor if you were more interested in being objective and considerate beyond what seems to be your final plateau - that people are different and experience things differently. If that stood for half a second, why are you a head-fier since 2003? Unless you strictly avoid all content here pertaining to impressions.

I'm going to agree with you.

USG

[ZephyrSapphire]

Been watching this thread closely and I gotta agree with Luminette. When I just started getting into this head-fi business I was already planning to buy an iMod blablablabla lalala yadayada. But after much thought and experience, I thought why bother. The essence of portability is already killed with all these addons and such.

Amp makers are making so many "portable" amps and yet have forgotten an important factor, thickness. Who cares if it's 2" by 2" in width and length? If it's more than 0.5" thick, it will bring the living hell to your pockets. Portable amps should be pocket friendly and I've only seen 2 companies actually making pocket friendly amps which actually sound good for the cost, iBasso & Minibox. If you want to make anything thicker than that, might as well make a transportable amp.

And I personally gotta agree with the Luminette on "portable" amp prices. $500 can get you a nice home amp.

I personally can hear the difference between the iPod's headphone out and an amp connected via an LOD. But that's just me. That said, I can't wait for a 64GB iPod Touch to come out and I can't wait for iBasso's T4 to come out.

[Sherwood]

1422 posts, and only one double post. I think I'm winning